Curse

Iuris · Apr 23, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Now that the insane title is done, I'd like to address the alleged grind issues of Guild Wars. I don't see where the grind is supposed to be. I never had to do any!

I started playing some time before Nightfall came out, and with about 850 hours played, I have 5 player characters, all with 15k armor, all with at least two campaigns under their belt (native + Factions, usually). It's not much by serious player standards, I'll grant, but it is the basic of luxury in this game.

I usually only play the game. I play with the whole party of heroes and henchmen, playving through an area, doing the quests, clearing the enemies, pick up and ID all the items and sell them to merchants. I usually get a reasonable amount of gold for selling those at the end of the day. Now, it may not be much. But by the time I get to the area where my players' desired elite armor is, I have enough gold to get most of the armor. Even if you get only about 1k per area per quest, that adds up over the course of the game. Add in the quest rewards (Prophecies -50 cesta @5000, NF minor vigor rune, quartermaster items @200, ...), and you are really getting quite a lot of gold. Just enough, by my estimate, for the 15K armor and a weapon.

I usually have to play some more to get the dyes, though. However, I have to point out that:
-in all this time I have not had any expensive drops that would be really sellable. I have had some black dyes, a white dye when they were still 15k,
-I have bought two minipigs at 20k for two friends when they were still expensive.
-I still haven't sold/used up all the quest rewards. I still have what, 2-3 Amulets of the mists, all but one Book of secrets, about 30 amber and jadeite unused.

The only instances of grinding I recognized were my first grind for jadeite shards with my warrior (that being an extra expensive armor) and yesterday's 10 hour legendary spearmarshall grind that had my brain dribbling out of my ears at the end of the day.

In the end, I would recommend to all people: just play the game. Help people across missions, finish the quests, and blimey, the money for the basics will come in fast enough. The only things that are really out of reach if you just casually play are the expensive skins and FoW armor.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Lightbringer Points.

Doesn't that say it all?

Perhaps I should elaborate in saying that anyone who wants any of the slightly more obscure PvE titles has to do a certain amount of grinding for them..... or else aquire the obscene amounts of cash required from alternative sources (like rare-item resale), and even then a certain level of grinding is involved.

If you're casual about it then you just wouldn't see any of that.

Then of course there is the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title.... but then nobody unwilling to grind would go near that with a barge pole (and I AM quite willing).

cellardweller · Apr 23, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

In the end, I would recommend to all people: just play the game. Help people across missions, finish the quests, and blimey, the money for the basics will come in fast enough. The only things that are really out of reach if you just casually play are the expensive skins and FoW armor.

Unless of course you want to play with more than just one skill bar throughout the game. If you have one of each primary and you want to get a resonable amount of skills, it costs an absolute fortune. Even if all you want is your primary skills + 20 secondary skills it would cost 3million gold!

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Unless of course you want to play with more than just one skill bar throughout the game. If you have one of each primary and you want to get a resonable amount of skills, it costs an absolute fortune. Even if all you want is your primary skills + 20 secondary skills it would cost 3million gold!

Unless your Primary is one of the Core classes and you have Prophecies, better still if your Secondary is Core as well...

And let us not forget that the price doesn't START at 1000 per skill, but rather works its way up there.

cellardweller · Apr 23, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Skill quests and price ramping have already been factored in.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Have you factored in that given there are no titles connected to it, there are very few people who will want ALL skills for their primary class... 20 for their secondary is on the upper end of what would be wanted, but reasonable.

I suppose on the whole I'm certainly not disproving your point, but just implying that the magnitude isn't quite so extreme as you might suspect.

It is also worth noting for those of us who collect Elite Skills that the average Elite Skill capping session in an explorable area (or even missions) will often pay for itself... i.e. about 1k's worth of loot. The clear exception is those bosses near the outposts, multi-cap sessions and the like. It isn't 1 for 1... but I managed to cap something like 40 elite skills the other day with an initial 10k investment.

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Apr 23, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Perhaps I should elaborate in saying that anyone who wants any of the slightly more obscure PvE titles has to do a certain amount of grinding for them.....

...and I see nothing wrong with that. If people want something out of the ordinary, they'll have to work for it. What's the point of special titles if one can get them without effort? Same goes for the skills example. Having one character for each profession with a complete skill set in my eyes is a luxury.

Or to put it in other words: You can certainly find quite a lot of grind in the game if you want to, but only a very small ammount of grind is required.

Of course that always depends on the point of view.

cellardweller · Apr 23, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightyfour-onesevenfive

Same goes for the skills example. Having one character for each profession with a complete skill set in my eyes is a luxury.

I'd call it the absolute minimum required to play.

You'll get no argument from me on things like fancy armour or sugar rush titles, but skills are the basic element of guildwars game content - pve or pvp. If you have less skills, you have less to do in the game.

Iuris · Apr 23, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Unless of course you want to play with more than just one skill bar throughout the game. If you have one of each primary and you want to get a resonable amount of skills, it costs an absolute fortune. Even if all you want is your primary skills + 20 secondary skills it would cost 3million gold!

Hehe, I'll take that as a challenge. It's about time to make an inventory, anyway

Answers in about a day, I hope.

But who the heck would want to buy the whole skill set, anyway?

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Apr 23, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'd call it the absolute minimum required to play.

See, there's the "point of view" issue.

For me the absolute minimum would be one character with most skills of his primary profession, not ten with all.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightyfour-onesevenfive

...and I see nothing wrong with that. If people want something out of the ordinary, they'll have to work for it. What's the point of special titles if one can get them without effort? Same goes for the skills example. Having one character for each profession with a complete skill set in my eyes is a luxury.

Reality check: Go to somewhere like.... for instance... Hell's Precipice...
... And tell me how many people you see there without titles.

And then perhaps tell me what else there is to achieve in the game besides titles and collecting "special" loot?

You'll notice that if you subtract anything that doesn't involve grind in some way, shape or form..... the game loses ALL replayability and draw-back value.

wynoski · Apr 23, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Unless of course you want to play with more than just one skill bar throughout the game. If you have one of each primary and you want to get a resonable amount of skills, it costs an absolute fortune. Even if all you want is your primary skills + 20 secondary skills it would cost 3million gold!

but you don't need EVERY single skill for your primary...its nice, but I have never needed poisoned heart, envenom ehchants, and some other anti Paragons skills...I run different builds, I have about 20 for my necro to include gimmick builds like the contagion N/D build. My other toons all have headpieces with sup runes for all attributes.

My characters that have finished one campaign are half way to their 15k armor...two campaings should do it for 15 k armor...Elite skins, FOW armor...meh...

You have to go after what YOU want not what anyone else wants...I don't like pets, I sell them...others love them and want a complete set...others collect greens, elite skins...these are all tangents that unless you are a dedicated player, you go after what you want...Me...I am an elite skill guy... Point is all these tangents require some Grinding...Like SotiCoto pointed out, when I skill cap, I stay in the area until I make the 1plat for the next sig...

Bryant Again · Apr 23, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

I like the grind. It's about the only thing that makes Guild Wars feel like a real MMORPG. There also isn't a whole lot of endgame content.

(I think I might've made a post earilier contradicting my view this...Just letting ya'll know.)

Torqual · Apr 23, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

You'll notice that if you subtract anything that doesn't involve grind in some way, shape or form..... the game loses ALL replayability and draw-back value.

Not at all. It depends how you define grind.

Grind for me would represent gameplay that is essentially unenjoyable in the pursuit of a larger objective - the sacrifice of enjoyment for achievement.

Rather like going to work.

Now, for me, I don't really find any grind in GW at all. This is because I enjoy every second of gameplay. Things like titles might give me some long-term goals that give reason to otherwise less-meaningful gameplay, but this is a good thing.

I used to ignore little side quests in places like the Jade Sea/Echovald Forest - and with no quests at all, why would anyone explore the South Shiverpeaks? But now I can go into somewhere like Silent Surf or Mineral Springs with maybe one quest to do but can also work on about 5 titles at the same time. I can clear the area out, map it, cap 1-2 elites, open the chests, ID the golds, and get extra satisfaction from doing these little things. Every now and then I get a threshold and get a happy few moments because I went up a rank in a title or other. Also, every time I go out on a new run I make it my business to take 1-2 skills I never used before. People complain about grinding for cash....I have loads and I make it just by playing the game!

Where is the harm in all this? SotiCoto you seem to think that the game should go on forever? Maybe some people would like to keep playing after they complete all three campaigns. Titles have been a great success - and if they are hard to achieve, this is good because you shouldn't get a title for doing nothing.

Titles are an optional extra that adds longevity to the game for people that enjoy every moment of playing it. They are not the main purpose of the game, which as far as I can see is to develop a character and complete the campaigns.

Brilliant OP by the way - it entirely encapsulates my view of the game.

Bryant Again · Apr 23, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

Not at all. It depends how you define grind.

This is my definition. "Grind: something you're forced to do that you don't like."

If you like to do it, it's not grind. All opinional. If it's grind to someone else, it's probably not grind to another.

Torqual · Apr 23, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Also a good definition, and good viewpoint.

SotiCoto · Apr 23, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

If you're fiddling with the definition of a grind then essentially you could claim there is no grinding at all.... but I stick to a slightly different definition: Going through rote motions several times in order to achieve something.... and that is irrespective of what else I might try to splice inbetween to keep myself entertained.

I consider Alliance Battling to be a grind.... It is the same process in essence every single time: Fight Luxons, Capture Shrines, try to get to 500 points first. I do it to get Faction points and aim for the Friend of the Kurzicks title track... I don't do it for its own sake. I'd NEVER play AB (nor Fort Aspenwood) any more if it weren't for the title / Amber.

So what of other titles?
Grandmaster Cartographer isn't generally so much of a grind unless I miss spots.... though it is very long and near identical by process in every area, even if the area itself changes.
Protector... everyone has. Does involve some grinding sometimes in order to get Masters on a tough mission.... but that is it.
Treasure Hunter = Chest Grind.
Seeker of Wisdom = Gold Grind (typically with chests).
Skill Hunter = Similar to Grandmaster Cartographer: Same in process, different in location... though in Tyria it does involve a lot of grinding to get the right boss at a spawn-point.
Sweet-tooth = Sweet Grind (repetitive but not immensely time-consuming at least)
Drunkard = Alcohol Grind (definitely time-consuming unless the back-route is taken, and even then....)
Lucky / Unlucky = AFK ... on special events only. Nightmare to raise.
Skillz = Special event grind. Infrequent, and a total grind even when it does happen. I have nothing to do with it.
Survivor = Character grind... Nightmare.
Legendary Defender of Ascalon = 95% grind... though at least it is easy so I have the oppurtunity to enjoy the scenary rather than focusing all my attention on the numbers.
PvP Titles = 100% grind, and not even a necessarily predictable one... Primary reason I never touch on PvP aside from AB.

Aside from combination titles (and the Hard Mode titles that are equivalents of the Normal Mode ones)... what have I neglected to mention here?
They ALL contain some level of grind at least.... with the Protector ones having the least (and also being quickest and easiest to get).

Torqual · Apr 23, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

SotiCoto I am losing the will to live reading your posts! Do you still play Guild Wars? If so, I'd love to know why.

Sounds like time for a new game in your case. Nothing is played forever.

The rest of us seem quite happy BTW.

eightyfour-onesevenfive · Apr 23, 2007, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Reality check: Go to somewhere like.... for instance... Hell's Precipice...
... And tell me how many people you see there without titles.

And then perhaps tell me what else there is to achieve in the game besides titles and collecting "special" loot?

You'll notice that if you subtract anything that doesn't involve grind in some way, shape or form..... the game loses ALL replayability and draw-back value.

When I think back to the time by which I had finished the game for about the fourth times, I would have seen not a single title at all, because titles were only implemented with Factions. ;D

Well, what do you expect? Replayability without repetition? How is that supposed to work? You're right, everything that goes beyond finishing the game storyline can be considered "grind". I still fail to see how this is a bad thing.

Orbberius · Apr 23, 2007, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If you're fiddling with the definition of a grind then essentially you could claim there is no grinding at all.... but I stick to a slightly different definition: Going through rote motions several times in order to achieve something.... and that is irrespective of what else I might try to splice inbetween to keep myself entertained.

So... it appears to me that you play the game for the titles, not the enjoyment of playing the game, but you also want to complain that titles take grind to get. What the hell??? Maybe you should stop looking at the 'H' screen and just play the game?